Gym Leaders; Who And Where Are They?

[Reliability]

We discussed this at length in the Suggestions topic, but we moved on from it and I think it's about time to start discussing so we can get them chosen and move on with all the other things we have to do in creating new gym leaders. Here's what was talked about and essentially decided on:

-There will be 12 gyms: 6 in Caldera and 6 in Kirant.
-Hanzo and Mandy were scrapped because their concepts were cliché among some other reasons
-Therefore 6 gyms in Caldera, so that much is done (click the spolier to view them):

Fire- Cranewing
Flying- Softwind
Grass -Roothaven
Electric -Dynamo
Ice -"Frost Town"
Ground -Saharan

-Cetacea and Icthyes are off limits for gyms because of their part in the storyline
-Tristan will be a gym leader, then advance to the E4, so he will fill one of the spots
-It has also been suggested that Layla be removed from the E4 and placed as a gym leader
-It would be nice to re-use Hanzo's sprite, since it's kickass.
-The most recent suggestion (with some edits based on comments afterwards) is as follows:
Kalypso City - Fighting
Portwind City - Light (Tristan)
Sedcini City - Dragon
Laysan Town - Poison
Enechestra City - Rock
Aquapolis City - Dark (Layla)

And the E4 types will be:
Steel
Water
Light
something else

Some possible alterations I can think of would be to ditch Laysan altogether and have a water gym in Gallea, but I can't remember there ever being a poison gym before, so that might be unique. As for Hanzo's sprite, it would be easy to recolour and use as the 'wise old dragon master.'

[Cyndadile]

Poison gym: Koga/Janine. But I'd like a poison gym, and water too.

[Reliability]

I was very close to scanning a list to make sure that comment wasn't stupid. Clearly I did not do that.

[Cyndadile]

Still, it is not a very common type. Only one gym out of 32. (If you don't remember, Janine replaces Koga when Koga goes E4.)

[ImmunityBow]

How about having Hanzo be retired and living somewhere (such as Laysan Town?) He's too restless so starts a gym there, We can also have a sidequest with a poisoned town water supply or such, that Hanzo unwittingly caused.

I would advise against Fighting since later you fight Chuck in Cianwood.

[NyteFyre]

Agreed, Chuck was terrible enough...


Anyway, i like the idea of a Dark type gym, seeing as they've never been done, And the rest of the gyms seem perfectly fine to me.

[Reliability]

How about having Hanzo be retired and living somewhere (such as Laysan Town?) He's too restless so starts a gym there, We can also have a sidequest with a poisoned town water supply or such, that Hanzo unwittingly caused.

I would advise against Fighting since later you fight Chuck in Cianwood.
We would have to replace it with another gym in Gallea, which could double another type. And using Hanzo in the sidequest thing wouldn't nearly be as good a use for his sprite IMO as making it another leader.

As for the fighting bit, this type fits Kalypso relatively well and we don't have too many more viable types that wouldn't double:
Bug
Ghost
Normal
Psychic
Besides, Chuck would be much farther into the game than the forth gym. ...right?

Does anyone want to suggest the 4th E4 spot's type? I think Ghost would work best at this point...

[NyteFyre]

Ghost seems like a fine type to put there. Battling a Ferrian, a Misticade, and other Ghost types before Vincent would be great! There's only been 1 ghost E4, Agatha, and she retired after gen 1.

[ImmunityBow]

There's also the RSE Ghost leader, the Hawaiian girl.

[BladeVap]

There's also the RSE Ghost leader, the Hawaiian girl.

Phoebe, yes.

I'd like a Ghost OR Dark Gym, myself.

[Cyndadile]

I'd like ghost.

[NyteFyre]

This is for E4, not gym. Dark gym has already been decided on, I think.

[Tygris]

A dragon gym would be really good

[Reliability]

I only chose Ghost because we don't have many good normal or bug types. Psychic was my next choice, since both it and ghost are used in the E4 twice, and have 2 gyms in the first four generations. So they're pretty interchangeable.

From what I can see here are the things that still need to be decided:
-whether to have a gym in Laysan at all (and what it's replacement could be)
-what to do with Hanzo's sprite (keep it Hanzo, or re-use it elsewhere0
-The type for the E4 member

I say have a gym in Laysan, use Hanzo's sprite as another gym leader and have a ghost E4. If you have any other qualms, please say them now, so that this can move along. :)

[NyteFyre]

This is perfectly fine with me, Reli.

[Zenith]

I still don't think Layla would work as well in Aquapolis. She would work better in a relatively isolated village, or something. If we went with a Dark gym in Aquapolis, we'd have to work with something besides "Dark != Evil".

[ImmunityBow]

Actually, Zenith, Dark does have a lot of evil in it whether you like it or not. Let's just list:
Pursuit
Taunt
Torment
Thief
Umbrage
Beat Up

Do I need to go on? Layla's fine anywhere, I think. She'd work best in Saharan City but that's already Osiro's turf. We don't need to stress Dark =/= Evil since that's a cliche in and of itself, and just let Layla be what she is.

[NyteFyre]

Besides, is the sea floor not incredibly dark at deep depths?

[Reliability]

There is no real issue here. If it's her name that's the issue, that can be changed. Half the people wont make that connection and the ones that do won't really care. And we son't have to make her evil, just because the sea-floor is foreboding.

I'll wait a few days and if no other issues come up, then we can move forward to... something more exciting. :P

[Zenith]

Actually, I was getting to something like that. If we put a Dark gym in Aquapolis, a "fearful, foreboding" style would make more sense. The gym's whole thing would be about intentionally trying to make you as scared as possible, and you would overcome it as you got through the gym and beat the leader.

[Reliability]

Three days have passed, no one has said nothing. I think we can move on to naming.
Easiest way to do it:


Fighting:
Dragon:
Poison:
Rock:
Ghost:

C+P, then fill in any of your ideas. Also, try to keep it to one post, so think about it for a day or two. That way, I don't have to sort through 20 posts by one person when compiling the list. Also, try to have some rationale behind your name. Putting down "George" for example because "oh, I just really like the name," is probably not going to beat out a name with a play on words or meaning behind it.
I'm also going to avoid renaming Layla and the other gym leaders if at all possible. All of the current names are good and were previously voted on and officialized. Perhaps later we can re-visit it if any are an issue, but I would prefer to get things done instead of re-doing what is already perfectly fine. :)

To follow my own advice, I won't be posting my ideas for at least another day, in case I think up any more.

[Betatmw]

New here, first post and all that :p
Fighting: 'The Fist' - This one is more of a nickname, it's not an uncommon thing among fighters so it's something which I think could work.
Dragon: Drake - Just something I came up with, mainly came from this line of thinking: Dragon, Draconian, Drake.
Poison: Nightshade - Doesn't really need explaining, named after the poison itself and works well as a name.
Rock: Rocco - I like this name because it has a variation of the word 'Rock' in it so it's perfect for this gym. It's also kind of a tough name.
Ghost: Willow - A deriative of the ghost: Will-o-the-wisp.

[ImmunityBow]

Rocco and Willow are great, or rather Willow would have been excellent except that she's already the region's professor.

Not a fan of the others, though, especially Drake since it's already one of the RSE E4 members.

I'm not entirely a fan of your choices either Reliability, as right now we're scrapping Layla, who I feel has a much stronger place among the Gym leaders than a Fighting-type one (especially with Chuck around, and there having been no Dark-type Gyms before).

Bane could be a possible name for a Poison-type gym leader, though Batman references come through.

[Reliability]

The only issue with replacing the Fighting gym is that there isn't much we can replace it with. If we don't want to double, we have Bug, Normal and Psychic. And we'd have to find a free city in Kirant that can be associated with that type or further move things around so that it will fit.

Are we scrapping Layla? I never thought that we were...

[ImmunityBow]

Think about it, we're keeping Fire, Flying, Grass, Electric, Ice, Ground, right? And we've confirmed Tristan's going to "graduate" to the E4 later after you beat him, so now you've listed 5 types, Fighting, Dragon, Poison, Rock, Ghost. That doesn't leave any room for Layla. So either we need to scrap Layla or scrap one of the other types, in which case I would recommend Fighting.

[Reliability]

I proposed Ghost for the person who replaces Layla in the E4. I guess I didn't really make that clear...

[gligar]

I think a dark type gym leader.

[Betatmw]

Hmm, shame about Willow, I think that would've worked out quite well for a Ghost leader. Here's some more, missed out Rock because I think Rocco could work.
Fighting: Jet, Lee ( Guess where they're from? :p) or maybe Bronson? The toughest prisoner in British history and a well rounded fighter?
Dragon: I can honestly say I'm completely stuck on this one. Maybe George? as In St. George and the Dragon? I'll get back to this one.
Poison: Bella maybe? as in Belladona? or maybe Ivy? as in Poison Ivy? Could work well.
Ghost: Aura or possibly Claire (as in Clairvoyant) . Never realised how difficult names could be.

[ImmunityBow]

Bronson sounds like it would be a fine name for a Fighting-type leader, though I'm still not sold on Fighting yet.
George as a Dragon leader, though many would not get it, is really interesting. I think it's a really cool link though it certainly needs a lot of thought to get around.
Ivy is fine, (though is that not a professor too?) never heard of Belladona before.
Claire doesn't work since she's the Dragon leader for GSC. Todd could be an idea (Tod means "dead" in German)

[Betatmw]

Yeah I think Todd would work. If not a fighting gym though then what? I think a dark gym would be a decent addition to the list, in fact I don't think Layla should be removed and should replace fighting and then have ghost move into her current position.

[Cyndadile]

I agree with IB on Fighting.

And yes. Ivy was a professor (in the show, at least).

Seems like something happened between her and Brock that Brock won't talk about.

[Reliability]

Suggested/Confirmed Names List -names in italics are the confirmed names
Caldera
Fire: Froy
Flying: Therma
Grass: Fernando
Electric: Gerad
Ice: Christina
Ground: Osiro

Kirant
Fighting (if still useable): Bronson, Jet, Lee
Dragon: Drake, George
Poison: Bella(donna), Ivy, Nightshade, Bane
Light: Tristan
Rock: Rocco
Dark: Layla

Elite Four
Steel: Greyson/Grayson
Water: Torrence (IMO, but i might be wrong)
Ghost: Tod(d), Aura
Light: Tristan

I also hope this clears up any confusion that there was with what type was supposed to be what.

[ImmunityBow]

Just clearing up the Water-type gym leader. It's either Tori or Torrence, depending on the spriter.

[XTS]

Dragon: Matt/Matthew (from Tiamat, a dragon from I think babylonian mythology who was involved in their creation story or something)
Poison: Daphne ("Daphne (Daphne sp.). The berries (either red or yellow) are poisonous, causing burns to mouth and digestive tract, followed by coma. Often fatal." - straight from wikipedia, and wikipedia is always right :|)
Fighting: Marty (from 'martial arts'; could be male or female), Kwan/Quan (from 'taekwondo')
Rock: Jasper (from the gemstone jasper)
Ghost E4: Tom (from 'phantom'), Guy (from 'poltergeist'), Echo (no idea)

....you'll notice that my ideas deteriorated as the list went on. But I'll throw them out there anyway.

[Zenith]

Seconding Matthew for the Dragon leader...if we have one. How many non-Legend Dragons do we have?

...And in that line, we also need to think about how many 'mons we have of each type. It would be kind of hard to do a late-game Gym with a type that only had 5-ish different ones in the C-K Dex.

Also, we could go with Clara for the Ghost one. Similar enough to "clairvoyant", but different enough from Johto's Clair.

[XTS]

Besides Typhidna, you have 4 fully-evolved Dragons in the TopazDex - Drakodo, Malistril, Arowana, and Flygon. Osiro kind of already has Flygon, but you could pull 'Wana off Grayson and put him on Matthew/whatever. I guess it could just be a 4-pokemon leader with a pseudo-dragon like Tropius, Rhydon, or Lapras filling in for coverage or whatever (they're more dinosaur-esque, but close enough under the circumstances)? Poison has a solid group of options, Fighting might depend on what's being included in other gyms and E4 members (if necessary you could probably throw in Purior), Ghost has enough if you steal Ferrian from Grayson (who's really getting plundered), just not a particularly intimidating team (Phantasomo, Misticade, Dusclops, ....another Dusclops or Misticade, Ferrian). Rock has enough.

[hobo]

i've got a couple ideas for the ghost gym leader's name: Girl: Arachna, Elvira, Endora, Tabitha, Morticia, Hilda, Morticia and for guys: Poe, Vlad, Regan, Lucifer, Igor (probobly not), Herman, Damian

[Reliability]

Suggested/Confirmed Names List -names in italics are the confirmed names
Caldera
Fire: Froy
Flying: Therma
Grass: Fernando
Electric: Gerad
Ice: Christina
Ground: Osiro

Kirant
Fighting (if still useable): Bronson, Jet, Lee, Marty, Kwan/Quan
Dragon: Drake, George, Matthew, Wolfe
Poison: Bella(donna), Ivy, Nightshade, Bane, Daphne
Light: Tristan
Rock: Rocco, Jasper, Crys
Dark: Layla

Elite Four
Steel: Greyson/Grayson
Water: Torrence/Tori
Ghost: Tod(d), Aura, Tom, Guy, Echo, Arachna, Elvira, Endora, Tabitha, Morticia, Hilda, Morticia, Poe, Vlad, Regan, Lucifer, Igor, Herman, Damian
Light: Tristan

Do we want to care about gender balancing? I think that it would be prudent to make the Ghost elite a woman, especially if the water elite ends of up being male... But on the other hand, 3/4 of Ghost type leaders/E4 have been women...

As for my add-ons, Wolfe is derived from Beowulf, who slays a dragon (I just happened to like this spelling better) and Crys as in crystal (also, it's gender neutral).

[Cyndadile]

A couple name variations to adress the E4 gender issue:
Grayson-Grace
Torrence-Torri (As already stated)
Tristan-Trista/Tristi

[XTS]

I'm a bit curious about one thing; how many pokemon is each leader going to end up having? Usually only the last gym leader has 5 pokemon, but we have 12 gyms now, and the first gym leader has 3 pokemon. Basically this will mean that 6 gym leaders will have 3 pokemon and 5 gym leaders will have 4 pokemon, or vice versa. I just have a feeling that could get a little repetitive - maybe give another GL 5 pokemon (presumably Christina, since she'd be the second-to-last leader)?

Froy
Therma
Fernando
[Fighting gym]
[Poison gym]
[Dragon gym]
[Light gym]
[Dark gym]
[Rock gym]
Gerad
Christina
Osiro

.....judging by the ordering of the Kirant cities, that looks like the order the gyms would be in. Just by the way.

[Cyndadile]

Couldn't we do something more origional, like 3(5), 4(4), and 5(3) or 5(2) and 6(1)?
That probably made no sense.
Basically, 333334444555 or 333334444556.

[Zenith]

We probably don't want to have the Gyms in the exact order you visit cities in. It'd be really linear. We need some way of keeping the region from being one long path.

Also, I think we're making the Dark Gym last now, and putting it in Aquapolis.

[Reliability]

Having it linear isn't really a bad thing, especially since the region is so huge. There should be enough side quests and main storyline that just because the gyms are in a pretty linear configuation, it won't mean that the adventure will be. Also, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to have too many "this gym is closed" things that you have to pass.

I think it's pretty accepted that the Caldera gyms are going to be the first three and the last three gyms (with Layla being flexible to slot in at the end as well), so it's really just a matter of moving the Kirant ones around. I think that XTS's order is fine, but if you want, here is a more complex, "less-linear" option if people aren't happy:

Fire
Flying
Grass
Fighting
[Poison gym is temporarily closed]
Rock
Light
Poison
Dragon
Ice
Ground
Dark

But it seems like an unnecessary amount of going back and forth

[Cyndadile]

Or, of course, one of the gym leaders could have been kidnapped. :p

[Zenith]

As long as we have reasons...it just doesn't make much sense for all of the Gym cities to make one perfect line. Having a couple of them be a little off the path would break up the monotony that having only sidequests be off the path would create.

We need to have these types finalized, too. We don't want to end up using a type early that doesn't have very many 'Mons at the level the Gym will be at.

[NyteFyre]

i agree with Zenith, though i also like straightforward paths. i never liked being denied an area over something, like how you had to go back to fight Norman in RSE

[Reliability]

I hadn't done this yet, so to get it out of the way, here are the Pokemon that are useable for the current Kirant gym types. I also will include a list of Pokemon that are not the type, but can be associated with it if we need to fill a slot.

Fighting:
024/Wolvine
034/Mankey and/or 035/Primeape
140/Blitzfaust
141/Vilephist
149/Bakurge
157/Wolfrost
184/Purior
--
061/Loudred or 062/Exploud
081/Zangoose or 082/Zantilidae
147/Scyther or 148/Scizor

Poison:
059/Kondria
073/Venonat and/or 074/Venomoth
077/Grimer and/or 078/Muk
079/Koffing and/or 080/Weezing
136/Qwilfish
187/Atlaxa and/or 188/Thoraxa and/or 189/Illumbra

Dragon:
121/ Drakodo
145/Sinestril and/or 146/Malistril
185/Goldrake and/or 186/Arowana
--
138/Tropius and/or 139/Brontogon
150/Lapras and/or 151/Sirene
167/Trapinch and/or 168/Vibrava and/or 169/Flygon

Light:
040/Coroona
098/Slowpriest
103/Seraph
115/Togetic
132/Engil and/or 133/Benengil
140/Blitzfaust
151/Sirene
184/Purior
189/Illumbra
---
036/Mareep and/or 037/Flaafy and/or 038/Ampharos
039/Whispaw
048/Cleffa and/or 049/Clefairy and/or 050/Clefable
095/Slowpoke and/or 096/Slowbro and/or 097/Slowking
114/Togepi
150/Lapras
173/Chinchou and/or 174/Lanturn

Dark:
064/Murkrow and/or 065/Harskrow
066/Jackalant and/or 067/Phantern
105/Absol
106/Abyssus
110/Crawdaunt
127/Umbreon
129/Chiarame and/or 130/Serberine
134/Duval and/or 135/Malduval
141/Vilephist
190/Snarliger and/or 191/Noctiger and/or 192/Raiger

Rock:
044/Inflare and/or 045/Ingero
093/Tsunall
142/Rhyhorn and/or 143/Rhydon
144/Torkoal
175/Relicanth
178/Leoracle
--
104/Dunsparce

I left some obvious ones (ex.Phantasomo out of Light) because I want to leave certain options open for the E4, who haven't really been figured out IIRC.

[XTS]

It's a nice list and all, but a crapload of those overlap with each other. So you might want to figure out what you want to use where so you can see if you have enough or not.

Going in reverse order, from last E4 backwards (pokemon in no particular order)....

Ghost E4 - Phantasomo, Dusclops, Misticade, Misdreavus, Ferrian (okay, maybe not last...)
Light E4 - Purior, Slowpriest, Ampharos, Espeon, Illumbra
Water E4 - Tidasale, Starmie, Lanturn, Ludicolo, Kraklaw
Steel E4 - Scizor, Skarmory, Quiisord, Metusk, Arowana

Layla - Noctiger, Malduval, Harskrow, Vilephist, Sereberine
Osiro - Destado, Sandslash, Cackinge, Flygon, Khaphix
Christina - Frostorm, Iglonia, Polarice, Kunaiga
Gerad - Stribra, Jolteon, Nimbolt, Bakurge
Rock gym - Rhydon, Tsunall, Ingero, Leoracle
Light gym - Coroona, Seraph, Thoraxa, Purior
Dragon gym - Tropius, Malistril, Lapras, Drakodo
Poison gym - Kondria, Qwilfish, Seviper, Weezing
Fighting gym - Primeape, Zangoose, Blitzfaust, Wolfrost (I'd actually support the Fighting gym being delayed for whatever reason - it's actually quite powerful for just having got out of Caldera)

....and the first 3 Caldera gyms can remain pretty much the same.

Eh. Maybe something like that, anyway?

[Reliability]

Thank you. I can't make lists late at night.
This looks like it will work, and it is possible to delay Fighting, since Poison looks fine to be the fourth with that lineup.

IB was concerned about having Chuck come up, and the lack of fighting types and having to push the gym back has definitely made the idea less convincing to me then it was before. I can see three options: apply that line-up to him and come up with a new type, try to build two slightly different ones, or take Chuck out as a leader.

[NyteFyre]

XTS' list look fine to me, though i just woke up so... e.e
Anyway we could always have Chuck, and possibly Jasmine as extra bonus leaders, or something...

Also, do we have to get all 12 badges, or can we do like in the canon series, with making it so you only need 8, but you can get more if you wish? like when Gary had 10 badges in Kanto

[Reliability]

I think we should make it all 12, since the levelling challenges for having two optional ones and then the E4 might be more difficult than it's worth.

Chuck and Jasmine are already "bonus leaders," it's more a question as to whether he's fight-able or not. Since we don't have Chuck's Poliwrath or Jasmine's Steelix (their "signature" Pokemon), perhaps they would have to come in after the E4 and all that, when these Pokemon are introduced? That would at least reduce the factor of having two fighting leaders and we could replicate Chuck's old line-up and avoid too much overlap with the other Fighting leader (and consequently, Jasmine with Greyson).

[ImmunityBow]

I'm worried that the Poison gym is really quite weak. Maybe even Pythang over Seviper. I don't see any problems yet, I'll mention issues when I think of them. Still iffy about Fighting-type, I feel like we could pull off Normal with Miltank/Tauros/Eaglair/Persian or something. It'd certainly be quite the powerful team.

[NyteFyre]

well, that's kind of what i meant about Chuck, you know, an optional gym/fight, though yea, after E4 would make it better./

[Reliability]

I'm worried that the Poison gym is really quite weak. Maybe even Pythang over Seviper. I don't see any problems yet, I'll mention issues when I think of them. Still iffy about Fighting-type, I feel like we could pull off Normal with Miltank/Tauros/Eaglair/Persian or something. It'd certainly be quite the powerful team.

I definitely thought about a normal gym as a really feasible option. Like you said, there are some pretty good options in there for it. And I was pretty sure we would put Pythang instead of Seviper. But really, it's only the fourth/fifth gym out of twelve instead of eight, so how powerful does it really need to be?

[ImmunityBow]

I almost feel that if it's 5th gym, then cutting Kondria and having Pythang as a final Pokemon would be much more menacing. Kondria and Qwilfish are decidedly unspectacular, and Weezing does little to make up for what they lack, since it's so defensive. Instead, a trainer in the gym could run Kondria.

[Zenith]

So...Seviper and Pythang? Aren't we trying to avoid multiple 'mons from the same line in these lineups?

And a few other comments, with potential changes:

Light E4 - Purior, Slowpriest, Ampharos, Espeon, Illumbra
Slowpriest could possibly be replaced with Dolphure. And with a Water/Light either way, this fight can't be right before or after the Water one.


Layla - Noctiger, Malduval, Harskrow, Crawdaunt, Abyssus Crawdaunt isn't used in any other lineup, and fits better in an underwater Gym. Abyssus and its ability works with the "fear" motif more.


Osiro - Destado, Sandslash, Cackinge, Flygon, Khaphix
Do we have any better options than Sandslash? It's kind of the odd one out in the second last Leader's team.


Rock gym - Rhydon, Tsunall, Ingero, Leoracle
Would probably have this earlier. Only ten Rock types (Rel, you forgot the Gargoth line), and earlier gyms have fewer trainers.


Light gym - Coroona, Seraph, Benengil, Purior
This will have to be a mid-late Gym. Every Light type in the game besides Engil is a final stage evolution. At the same time, this would make it harder to make Tristan's potential bump into the E4 less surprising, since it would be so close together in game. And Thoraxa's pure Poison.


Dragon gym - Arowana, Malistril, Lapras, Drakodo
Arowana's a lot more of a threat than Tropius. Not like it'll be overpowered...not like we can't make the Dragon gym late. Lapras stayed 'cause there isn't a Water gym, and there is a Grass one. We could get away with giving a couple trainers Vibrava.


Poison gym - Venomoth, Qwilfish, Pythang, Weezing
We don't have a Bug gym anymore, sooo...


Fighting gym - Primeape, Zangoose, Blitzfaust, Wolfrost
Yeah, we can't use this fourth. >_> I'd recommend replacing this gym with a Normal one. We only have 8 Fighting types to work with.

[ImmunityBow]

Arowana's actually quite overused in the League if I'm not mistaken. Brontogon is another option, but Tropius/Brontogon are nice since they are dragon-like but offer different coverage. Especially at that point in the game, where Ice and Dragon-types aren't too available yet, it helps keep your whole team useful.

I agree with most others: definitely Venomoth over Kondria.

[NyteFyre]

-shrugs- They seem fine to me, though Brontogon over the obviously OU Arowanna is a definite, unless the dragon gym is going to be like Clair, and be the last gym, or something.

Also, what about Leader Rematches? will we have them? and if so, when?

[Reliability]

I would avoid using Dolphure over Slowpreist, simply because Dolphure is a starter. But the other suggestions are valid.

Is there anyone totally opposed to scrapping the Fighting gym for a Normal one? Speak now like Taylor Swift, so we can move on. (I'm sure no one will complain if someone wants to design a strating point for the line-up)

Also keep in mind that we do need to stock the gym trainers as well, so if you're put out by something not being in the leader's line-up, hope is not lost.

[NyteFyre]

i don't really care about these kinds of things, though i would like to see Gryphonic, and Cragoyle in there somewhere.

Also, I think the last like 3 gyms should have 6 on the leaders team or something like that. I hate it when it's almost always the same number from gym to gym in the middle areas. I know! Why not start off with the first Gym having only 2 (like Brock) then the next 3 gyms have 3, the next 4 have 4, the next 2 have 5, and the last 2 have 6? I prefer more variety in the gym leaders numbers.

And maybe, we could have a gym leader have only one pokemon, but it be really powerful?

[XTS]

We already have the first 3 gyms set pretty well, let's not go back and tinker around with them? >_>

I could see a Kirant gym getting the Chuck treatment - only having two pokemon, but powerful ones. Probably either the Light gym (Slowpriest and Purior) or Dragon gym (Malistril and Drakodo - I support this being left at 3 with just Lapras added, in any case)....

For Layla, I left Crawdaunt off because it's just not that good. Vilephist is very heavy hitting, and ought to actually provide a challenge. And if you want the "fear" motif, Serberine is a freaking three-headed Rottweiler (basically). I suppose serberine could be slid down into Malduval or Noctiger's slot to make room for Abyssus at the end.

If you don't want Sandslash on Osiro, you can take Rhydon from the Rock gym instead. Its place could be taken by the how-did-I-forget-it Cragoyle, and the gym trainers in both gyms could still use Rhyhorn.

If the Fighting gym is being replaced by a Normal gym (which I'm not a fan of, but not enough to argue against it), I move for Tristan to get Blitzfaust on at least his E4 lineup, perhaps as a gym leader as well (Blitzfaust-Purior could be great for a two-pokemon roster).

[NyteFyre]

This seems fine to me, XTS. Still though, what are the first 3 gym lineups? i don't know them...

[XTS]

http://www.pokemontopaz.net/forums/showthread.php?368-Topaz-Gym-Leaders

Right in this subforum, stickied. Sometimes it does you good to look around.

EDIT: 3rd gym leader is Fernando, since Hanzo got dropped. He could probably do with a small level drop, but otherwise I see no reason to change him, Froy, or Therma.

[NyteFyre]

Well, we could drop Brontogon on Fernando, and Growlithe on Froy, to allow Brontogon to be on the Dragon Leader's team, and lose Growlithe to show off the fire types of the C/K region.

And i did look around...I just missed that somehow. it needs to be updated anyway.

[ImmunityBow]

Do you really notice that much when the number of Pokemon in the gym stays constant? I certainly don't.

I'm going to go ahead and say Normal over Fighting type. We have Chuck, we have great canon Normal-types with new quirks to make up for our lack of Topaz Normals.

[Zenith]

I could see a Kirant gym getting the Chuck treatment - only having two pokemon, but powerful ones. Probably either the Light gym (Slowpriest and Purior) or Dragon gym (Malistril and Drakodo - I support this being left at 3 with just Lapras added, in any case)....
Don't think that would work. First of all, Johto's gyms didn't exactly have the best planning behind them...considering there are Johto gyms that only have 4 'mons in their type. >_> Second of all, the Dragon gym would really work better later, and having only a couple 'mons in the leader's lineup that late would make the fight too easy. And we can't make the Light gym too early because, again, Engil is the only one that isn't a final stage. Limiting the leader's lineup wouldn't fix that because even the Gym trainers will be using them.


For Layla, I left Crawdaunt off because it's just not that good. Vilephist is very heavy hitting, and ought to actually provide a challenge. And if you want the "fear" motif, Serberine is a freaking three-headed Rottweiler (basically). I suppose serberine could be slid down into Malduval or Noctiger's slot to make room for Abyssus at the end.
Okay, I can see what you mean about Crawdaunt. A few of the gym trainers can use it. Vilephist, Serberine, and Abyssus are all physical sweepers, and I wanted to limit the amount of similar-styled 'mons on the same team. Abyssus also works better with the "overcoming fear" philosophy of the gym that we seem to be agreeing on. I want to leave Malduval in to stop Bug sweeps...maybe Dionare would work, to stop Fighting sweeps. And since Layla's gym would be the last of 12, her team would probably be high enough for her to actually use Raiger.


If you don't want Sandslash on Osiro, you can take Rhydon from the Rock gym instead. Its place could be taken by the how-did-I-forget-it Cragoyle, and the gym trainers in both gyms could still use Rhyhorn.
Is that really our only choice? Ouch. Rhydon's typing is really bad, and its stats aren't good enough to make up for it (unlike Rhyperior). Rhydon would work better in the Rock gym, trainers in Osiro's gym could still use it. Cragoyle seems more like something Therma would have on her rematch team.


If the Fighting gym is being replaced by a Normal gym (which I'm not a fan of, but not enough to argue against it), I move for Tristan to get Blitzfaust on at least his E4 lineup, perhaps as a gym leader as well (Blitzfaust-Purior could be great for a two-pokemon roster).
Yeah, we could put Blitzfaust on his E4 lineup.

And some miscellaneous ideas:
-The Normal leader's signature 'mon could be Zantilidae. I would actually recommend having the Normal gym fourth in this case.
-Reducing Froy's lineup to 2 and Fernando's lineup to 3 is more for balance, especially in Froy's case. Players won't have that many options for stuff to catch early on.
-Fernando can't have both Wolvine and Phantern. I would recommend changing the Wolvine to Canileaf.
-And are we gonna change Topaz Phantern's name, so people don't confuse it with OI Phantern?
-The last 5 gyms could be Tristan (wherever)->Christina (Skobeloff Village)->Dragon leader (wherever)->Osiro (Saharan City)->Layla (Aquapolis). I actually have a plan for the Dragon one, but that ties into map stuff.
-We need to figure out badge names for the new Gyms, and what TMs they give out. We might need to add more TMs.

[ImmunityBow]

Sorry, Raiger is firmly in Vincent territory, as a Champion Pokemon.

Cragoyle could work fine in Sedcini, too, to deal with Grass-types.

Since we're not having the TRPG on OI anymore, I see no reason to change Phantern's name any more than I see any reason to change Embear and Grizzlare from Tanzanite.

Ah yes, TMs... Is it fine if we give out non-Topaz move TMs, such as Dragon Claw etc.?

[Reliability]

Second of all, the Dragon gym would really work better later, and having only a couple 'mons in the leader's lineup that late would make the fight too easy. And we can't make the Light gym too early because, again, Engil is the only one that isn't a final stage. Limiting the leader's lineup wouldn't fix that because even the Gym trainers will be using them.
The Dragon gym doesn't have to come later, and I'd actually prefer it to come sooner rather than later to break the mold that seems to be formed of Dragon trainers automatically being elite (Lance and Drake in the E4, Clair as the final gym leader). And even if the Light gym is "early-ish," it will still be fine. At the earliest, it will be gym 5, which has had pretty powerful Pokemon to it in the past. Besides, Purior and Seraph are both single stages and there are plenty of Pokemon we could include as Light kind-of types, so those are viable if we need to use them.


Okay, I can see what you mean about Crawdaunt. A few of the gym trainers can use it. Vilephist, Serberine, and Abyssus are all physical sweepers, and I wanted to limit the amount of similar-styled 'mons on the same team. Abyssus also works better with the "overcoming fear" philosophy of the gym that we seem to be agreeing on. I want to leave Malduval in to stop Bug sweeps...maybe Dionare would work, to stop Fighting sweeps. And since Layla's gym would be the last of 12, her team would probably be high enough for her to actually use Raiger.
Dionare can't be used, it's a starter.

You'll also note that none of the canon gyms are putting as much competitive thought into their gyms as you are. You could easily sweep most of the Jhoto and Hoenn gyms with a single type quite easily. And many of them used the same types of Pokemon. It's nice that we have someone to think about these things, but I would prefer putting more aesthetic thought into the line-ups, then think more competitive when it come to move sets. But that's just me.


Is that really our only choice? Ouch. Rhydon's typing is really bad, and its stats aren't good enough to make up for it (unlike Rhyperior). Rhydon would work better in the Rock gym, trainers in Osiro's gym could still use it. Cragoyle seems more like something Therma would have on her rematch team.
Cragoyle would actually be well suited to a Rock gym. Re-match teams are a thing of the distant future.


And some miscellaneous ideas:
-The Normal leader's signature 'mon could be Zantilidae. I would actually recommend having the Normal gym fourth in this case.
-Reducing Froy's lineup to 2 and Fernando's lineup to 3 is more for balance, especially in Froy's case. Players won't have that many options for stuff to catch early on.
-Fernando can't have both Wolvine and Phantern. I would recommend changing the Wolvine to Canileaf.
-And are we gonna change Topaz Phantern's name, so people don't confuse it with OI Phantern?
-The last 5 gyms could be Tristan (wherever)->Christina (Skobeloff Village)->Dragon leader (wherever)->Osiro (Saharan City)->Layla (Aquapolis). I actually have a plan for the Dragon one, but that ties into map stuff.
-We need to figure out badge names for the new Gyms, and what TMs they give out. We might need to add more TMs.
-Yes
-Sure
-If I had to choose, I would rather have him keep Wolvine and save Phantern for the Ghost E4. Wolvine has nowhere else to be since we're scrapping the Fighting gym
-We discussed this, and I think we decided that on OI, the name would be changed to... something that I can't remember, but as far as Topaz is concerned, it will stay the same
-That's a lot of back and forth in a really spread out region. Kanto was fine because it was dense and there were lots of routes to take, but I would prefer to have Gerad, Christina and Osiro together if possible, then we can mess around with the order of the Kirant gyms (as the bulk of the plot line will occur here anyway, which can facilitate the gym order and vice-versa)
-I'm not sure what the TM list looks like, but I hadn't thought about that. If it is an issue, we could stick with 8 original TM's (obviously moving Mandy and Hanzo's to appropriate subs) and have the others give out some other item. Or just have the Kirant gyms give out another kind of item and the Caldera give out TM's. That might help to separate the "two leagues." The badge names will probably be easy, but that should wait until we have a firmer grip on what these gyms are going to be. Once all of that is finalized, we can worry about the little things.

[Zenith]

The Dragon gym doesn't have to come later, and I'd actually prefer it to come sooner rather than later to break the mold that seems to be formed of Dragon trainers automatically being elite (Lance and Drake in the E4, Clair as the final gym leader).
Most dragons are just too damn strong for early gyms. They resist all three starter types, their attacks have incredible neutral coverage, and every one of them in canon besides Altaria is OU or better right now. I recommended putting the Dragon gym 10th, roughly equivalent to the 7th gym in an 8-gym system, which is still earlier than it's ever been.


And even if the Light gym is "early-ish," it will still be fine. At the earliest, it will be gym 5, which has had pretty powerful Pokemon to it in the past. Besides, Purior and Seraph are both single stages and there are plenty of Pokemon we could include as Light kind-of types, so those are viable if we need to use them.
The 5th gym in an 8-gym system is just past halfway. The 5th gym in a 12-gym system isn't even halfway. We also want to avoid using pseudo-types if at all possible. They're only used when there aren't enough of a certain type for the gym to work at any point, or when an earlier form isn't the right type, but its evolution is.


Dionare can't be used, it's a starter.
Gardenia uses Turtwig. Flint uses Infernape. Jasmine has Empoleon in her rematch team. I rest my case. >_>


You'll also note that none of the canon gyms are putting as much competitive thought into their gyms as you are. You could easily sweep most of the Jhoto and Hoenn gyms with a single type quite easily. And many of them used the same types of Pokemon. It's nice that we have someone to think about these things, but I would prefer putting more aesthetic thought into the line-ups, then think more competitive when it come to move sets. But that's just me.
Well, think about it. The Leaders use teams specifically to test amateur trainers. They're gonna make it harder over time. When a Dark gym is the last one you face, the leader isn't gonna just run a team that, say, Primeape can effortlessly sweep. Gamefreak just happens to not have a very good idea competitively. Furthermore, our target audience is gonna be older, as younger kids usually won't download a game like this by themselves, so we can afford to step the difficulty up a little.


Cragoyle would actually be well suited to a Rock gym. Re-match teams are a thing of the distant future.
I looked up the Rhyhorn line. Turns out Rhyhorn doesn't turn into Rhydon until Level 42. So it really would work better with Osiro.


If I had to choose, I would rather have him keep Wolvine and save Phantern for the Ghost E4. Wolvine has nowhere else to be since we're scrapping the Fighting gym.
The only problem I have with that is that Wolvine has no reason to use Cherry Bomb. And it wouldn't be like a League member to give Cherry Bomb to something that learns Leaf Blade naturally. On the other hand, the Jackalant line's Physical Attack is crap.


That's a lot of back and forth in a really spread out region. Kanto was fine because it was dense and there were lots of routes to take, but I would prefer to have Gerad, Christina and Osiro together if possible, then we can mess around with the order of the Kirant gyms (as the bulk of the plot line will occur here anyway, which can facilitate the gym order and vice-versa)
I have a plan to make it work better. I'll get it typed up...tomorrow. And since the 7th or 8th badge will probably be the one to unlock Fly, some backtracking won't be a concern.


I'm not sure what the TM list looks like, but I hadn't thought about that. If it is an issue, we could stick with 8 original TM's (obviously moving Mandy and Hanzo's to appropriate subs) and have the others give out some other item. Or just have the Kirant gyms give out another kind of item and the Caldera give out TM's. That might help to separate the "two leagues."
It's still one League, it just covers two distinct areas. And having just eight leaders give out TMs would feel kind of...strange. Why would the C/K League not regulate that?

[Reliability]

Most dragons are just too damn strong for early gyms. They resist all three starter types, their attacks have incredible neutral coverage, and every one of them in canon besides Altaria is OU or better right now. I recommended putting the Dragon gym 10th, roughly equivalent to the 7th gym in an 8-gym system, which is still earlier than it's ever been.
XTS suggested that we could use a Chuck-esque line-up: two strong pokemon instead of several slightly weaker ones. This could work here. Also, see next comment.


The 5th gym in an 8-gym system is just past halfway. The 5th gym in a 12-gym system isn't even halfway. We also want to avoid using pseudo-types if at all possible. They're only used when there aren't enough of a certain type for the gym to work at any point, or when an earlier form isn't the right type, but its evolution is.
I don't think it's going to be possible to fit 12 gyms into 8 gym level scheme. It will just not work. Especially with a plot line that looks as long (if not longer) than any canon game, the player is going to get stronger faster than the gym leaders do if we try to squeeze their levels in. If we're implementing a 12 gym system, the E4 is going to have to be much stronger than the top level 40's into 50's like they have been previously. (IIRC)
I agree that using pseudo-types is not necessary, but if they were needed to fill certain slots in gym trainer lines where all the other Pokemon are too powerful, we have those as options.


Gardenia uses Turtwig. Flint uses Infernape. Jasmine has Empoleon in her rematch team. I rest my case. >_>
All in the 4th generation. Up until that point, it simply was not the case. It depends whether we want to bring that in from the 4th generation as well, or keep it like it was before. I was never a fan of having starters in the teams, but that's just my personal preference.


Well, think about it. The Leaders use teams specifically to test amateur trainers. They're gonna make it harder over time. When a Dark gym is the last one you face, the leader isn't gonna just run a team that, say, Primeape can effortlessly sweep. Gamefreak just happens to not have a very good idea competitively. Furthermore, our target audience is gonna be older, as younger kids usually won't download a game like this by themselves, so we can afford to step the difficulty up a little.
The levels go up, which makes it harder. :P Anyhow, those of us who aren't competitive battlers might not appreciate the increase in difficulty. This is a long enough game as it is without having to over-train in order to get through the gyms because Layla's strategy to too flawless for me to beat.
Our demographic is currently unknown. It's likely that 5 year olds won't be playing this game, but I'm pretty sure most seven year-olds I know could download a file from the Internet.



The only problem I have with that is that Wolvine has no reason to use Cherry Bomb. And it wouldn't be like a League member to give Cherry Bomb to something that learns Leaf Blade naturally. On the other hand, the Jackalant line's Physical Attack is crap.
We just finished determining that Polarice on Christina's team isn't going to carry Icicle whip, which is her TM. As long as some Pokemon on the team has the move, I don't think that it particularly matters that one does not.


I have a plan to make it work better. I'll get it typed up...tomorrow. And since the 7th or 8th badge will probably be the one to unlock Fly, some backtracking won't be a concern.
It's still annoying to have gyms closed for one reason or another when you go through them the first time, and a feeling of "oh, I've already been here..." when you have to go back. It just wouldn't feel the same as the canon games, when as soon as you get to the town, you can fight the gym leader without having to go and beat someone else (barring Olivine and Hearthome).



It's still one League, it just covers two distinct areas. And having just eight leaders give out TMs would feel kind of...strange. Why would the C/K League not regulate that?
Well, you said it yourself: they're distinct regions. They are too different to be umbrellaed under the same name, and the C/K league would have to accept the diversity and that there might be differences in the ways that certain gyms are run.
And if we can find TM's to put in all the gyms, then that would be awesome. I'm just presenting alternatives so that if we can't get it to work, we have other ideas.

[NyteFyre]

While you both put out nice arguments, i think there can be a compromise.

On the competitiveness, I don't think Zenith was talking about making them like people do on Battle.net, but something similar, like having movesets that work well, and have coverage, at least in the later gyms. I agree that there should be a bit more competitiveness when facing the leaders, but make sure not to over-do it.

I always hated backtracking, and actually, in every generation, there has been backtracking in some way shape or form. Norman has to be passed up early in Gen 3, there's Hearthome in Gen 4, Kanto has a ton, and there's Olivine in Jhoto. Face it, there is always going to be forced backtracking in Canon games. I say we leave backtracking for after the E4, for like items/areas you couldn't reach previously, and such.

From my experience, XTS's idea for Wolvine is fine. Not every pokemon a gym leader has will have his signature move. In fact, it's usually reserved for their last, most powerful pokemon.

Distinct Regions giving out different items is fine for me. I hate some of the TMs you get from leaders, some i never use, or only the early ones, cause i need more powerful moves. That's it. I'd rather get hold items i can use, over TMs i won't. I think the first 3, which i believe are in Caldera, should give out TMs, to help you along, then the ones in Kirant give out Hold Items to help boost your game, then the last 3 give out TMs you will actually use, and are good to have. but that's just me.

I don't particularly like starters, and usually box mine after a certain amount of time, except for Jhoto, love my Typhlosion to death. I wouldn't care if trainers use them, or even gym trainers, but i would rather not see the Gym Leaders using them, or the E4 for that matter.

I'd like the idea of a battle that, even if you train well, and have a good team, you can still get your ass kicked by only 2 pokemon. I'm for the Chuck-Esque Dragon Gym. I never liked the predictable steady increase in the number of pokemon a leader uses, and think it would be a unique experience. Like how Inev is only using an Espeon on OI, but due to that, it is really tough.

[XTS]

I always hated backtracking, and actually, in every generation, there has been backtracking in some way shape or form. Norman has to be passed up early in Gen 3, there's Hearthome in Gen 4, Kanto has a ton, and there's Olivine in Jhoto. Face it, there is always going to be forced backtracking in Canon games.

The gyms in Isshu follow a straight, linear path, no backtracking required, because, like C/K, it's a big enough region that backtracking isn't necessary. Just figured I'd throw that out there.

Also, no starters on the E4 besides the Champ, because Vincent has the starter strong against yours, so depending on what you pick both he and an E4 member could then have the same pokemon. Not gonna happen.

[Zenith]

Okay, let me see if I covered everything.

-Nyte gets what I meant about the difficulty. I'm not talking Smogon-level; I just don't want the player to be able to bring a 'mon into a gym with a type that beats the gym's type and sweep effortlessly. I want the player to have to think on their toes to beat the Leaders...they're the game's major boss fights, after all.

-I don't mind backtracking, as long as it's done well and there's an incentive to do so. No one really mentions how you have to go back to Saffron in R/B/Y because you're not just there for the gym...you're also there to kick Team Rocket out of the Sylph Co. headquarters. In HG/SS no one really minds having to go back to Cianwood when the Safari Zone opens up because there's two completely new routes to explore as well. If it's done in a way that makes the player interested, backtracking is okay.

-Black & White get away with making the main game follow a perfect line because of the design of the region. Caldera-Kirant is too complex to just make a big loop. Again, a complex map isn't a bad thing if it's done well.

-Wolvine will be Fernando's signature 'mon. And the problem is that out of his team, only Cacnea can use Cherry Bomb well. Wolvine has Leaf Blade, and Jackalant's Attack is 20 points lower than its Special Attack.

-I'm still worried about having a Leader with a 2-mon team late because of how it changes the fight. Any hax affect the battle a lot more when the team is smaller, especially late game, when the player will have so many ways of making those hax happen.

-I know the gyms will still level at close to the same pace as the canon games, but I still don't want Tristan's gym too early. While there are a few Light types that are single-stage, having it mid-late game at the earliest gives us the ability to use all of them, meaning we won't need to resort to pseudo-Lights as much.

-I don't want to put starters on E4 teams. I was thinking that they wouldn't be out of the question elsewhere. ...Actually, Harskrow resists Fighting as well...

-While Caldera and Kirant have kind-of-different cultures, the Gyms are all run by the League.

[NyteFyre]

Also, no starters on the E4 besides the Champ, because Vincent has the starter strong against yours, so depending on what you pick both he and an E4 member could then have the same pokemon. Not gonna happen.

This is what i was saying. =_= I don't want starter on the leaders teams, and i don't want them on the E4 teams. I don't mind so much if a random trainer, or a corresponding gym trainer having one or two of them, but no more.


I don't mind backtracking, as long as it's done well and there's an incentive to do so...If it's done in a way that makes the player interested, backtracking is okay.

This is kind of what i meant. It's fine if there's a good reason to do so, not like skipping Hearthome, and Norman, just because they're too strong. Crappy reasoning, and constantly doing so make backtracking very irksome...

And please don't quote B/W to me, i know almost nothing about the region, or it's pokemon, or stuff like that and don't want to...4th gen ruined canon games for me. I may get Black or White when they get cheaper (and come out in the US), but i'm not caring for it at the moment.


Wolvine will be Fernando's signature 'mon. And the problem is that out of his team, only Cacnea can use Cherry Bomb well. Wolvine has Leaf Blade, and Jackalant's Attack is 20 points lower than its Special Attack.

Well, either change up the team, or just give it to Cacnea is all i can think of. Personally, I don't care who gets the Signature TM that much, so this doesn't bother me any.


-I'm still worried about having a Leader with a 2-mon team late because of how it changes the fight. Any hax affect the battle a lot more when the team is smaller, especially late game, when the player will have so many ways of making those hax happen.

Well then, we'll just have to amp it up some so the hax doesn't have as potent an effect By this, i mean the difficulty/AI Intel level, to help cross out this possible match changer.. Besides, they're Dragons, hax, while it does help, is not all that much of an advantage over these mythical beasts.

[ImmunityBow]

For the TMs, I do like the idea of Caldera gym leaders giving out TMs (and Venom Strike and Focus Sight being found randomly elsewhere) and Kirant gym leaders giving items. The Sedcini Rock gym leader, for instance, would be perfect for giving out Plain Stone.

As for competitiveness of Gym leaders, I like having coverage, but we don't need to optimize the TM with the Pokemon. Fernando's Phantern not being able to use Cherry Bomb well doesn't matter because Cherry Bomb is really freaking powerful for that point in the game. That's an 80 base power move in the third gym in the game. That's pretty insanely good considering that even Fahramane is probably using Ember at this point in time.

Backtracking is unfortunately inevitable with the cyclical nature of the region. You'll have to go through Icthyes and Cetacea then go back to Colossus to proceed to Dynamo Gardens.

[NyteFyre]

Maybe....you know that Rivalry orb you need for Pythang/Zantidae? Well, i was thinking that the Poison, and Normal type gyms could hand you each other's half, and each half alone would make it's type more powerful, and then you have to go somewhere special to get them fused, allowing access to those two...but that's just an idea.

[Betatmw]

Maybe....you know that Rivalry orb you need for Pythang/Zantidae? Well, i was thinking that the Poison, and Normal type gyms could hand you each other's half, and each half alone would make it's type more powerful, and then you have to go somewhere special to get them fused, allowing access to those two...but that's just an idea.

I agree with this, it sounds like a good idea. So you would have Rivalry Orb Half (P) and (N) which would just provide a power boost like the sunglasses, plates etc?

[ImmunityBow]

It's not a bad idea, since Pythang and Zantilidae are prime candidates for their teams, too. We could even have a bit of a rivalry between the two leaders, themselves.

[Reliability]

I'm very on board.

[NyteFyre]

All right, glad to see my ideas come to fruition. Now what about the stuff Zenith and XTS were on about?

[Zenith]

A problem I see with it is, well, if Rivalry Orb shards are only obtained by getting them from Gym Leaders, and can only be used on a single Zangoose or Seviper, wouldn't that make completing the Dex impossible?

And the main problem I have with having Leaders give out non-TMs is that the TM moves are treated kind of like the Leader's signature move. You can't exactly do that with part of a Rivalry Orb or some other equippable item.

It's a solid idea, but I think it would be better if we looked for TMs that worked first, and kept this as a backup idea.

[ImmunityBow]

No, you would take them to an NPC and have them combined into the Rivalry Orb, a hold item that would let you evolve any Zangoose or Seviper.

I don't really see your point when we're running 12 gym leaders. We've already established that 12 gym leaders makes it impossible to keep to all of the gym-associated traditions. Why is this so much more important then?

[Zenith]

I know that they evolve when they level up with the Rivalry Orb equipped. But when one of them evolves, the Rivalry Orb is used up. And if you can only get one by getting the halves from the two Gym Leaders, then you can't have both Zantilidae and Pythang. If you can get another, it ruins the importance of getting the halves from the Gym Leaders.

And I guess it just feels kind of...off to not have Gym Leaders throw a move at you that you haven't seen before. I dunno, it kind of ruins the spectacle of it a little.

[Reliability]

But when one of them evolves, the Rivalry Orb is used up.


... a hold item that would let you evolve any Zangoose or Seviper
As in, it doesn't disappear after one use. It stays around.

[Zenith]

That would make it the first of its kind to do so. The Razor Claw, Reaper Cloth, Magmarizer, etc. disappear after the evolution.

[Reliability]

Indeed it would be. But if you hadn't noticed (like the contents of this topic, for example), we seem to be doing that a lot.

[NyteFyre]

Is there anything wrong with that? That's what this game is about, new ideas, fresh thinking, it's a fan game for crying out loud! I think you seem a bit stuck on the canon games Zenith, no offense intended or anything...

[Reliability]

Is there anything wrong with that? That's what this game is about, new ideas, fresh thinking, it's a fan game for crying out loud! I think you seem a bit stuck on the canon games Zenith, no offense intended or anything...
I think it needs to be a balance. Sometimes I argue FOR canon things, simply because I like the way that it has been done and don't want to change it.

The advantage of being a fan game, though, is that if we come up with a good idea (like this rivalry orb idea) that we really want to use, we don't have to be constrained by canon. But the advantage of having canon games to go off of is that we are constrained from making really stupid decisions and being overly complicated.

[NyteFyre]

it's like a bit of a Paradox?

i mean, I'm not totally against following the canon games to some degree, cause without that, it wouldn't even be considered a fan game. But i also don't like everything that canon games go for. Like, i can see how those items Zenith mentioned disappeared, because they actually become part of the pokemon, like Rypherior, but being used up after it's done just doesn't seem to fit the Rivalry Orb.

Personally, i could see a whole storyline behind the rivalry, dating back to pre-civilization, about Zangoose and Seviper once being friends, and using the orb together to get stronger, but not so one can beat the other. Then some incident happened when humans entered the scene, whereupon the orb was broken, over a fight two humans had over which were better, poison, or normal, which continued to the present day, each half passing down thru the generations of each trainer's family, leading down to the two leaders, and this same incident lay the foundation for the Zangoose/Seviper rivalry.. And just for story line's sake, and to make the fact that each gym has the evolution of them able to be so, we'll say the orb was split unevenly, and therefor part of the poison half remained in the Normal half, and vice-versa. Only thru extensive exposure, I'm talking years, did each leader's pokemon evolve. However, for times sake, it would simply be easier to unite the halves, and get near instant evolution, without losing the orb...Maybe afterward, the conjoining of the orb would help spur the two leaders to try and reconcile their differences. I'm thinking some elder from a remote village that still uses old magics would be the one to unite the halves...In fact, I'm thinking that to do so, both pokemon, and for story sake, both leaders must be present for it to work, and this is how they reconcile.

I dunno. just a random thought of how it could come to be. Of course, the story could delve further, to tell how the orb itself came to be, but that's up to you guys.

[Reliability]

I'm not sure about developing a whole storyline. Any information about all of that will have to come through in little bits from the gym leader and/or the gym trainers, otherwise it becomes overly complicated for a simple item, and it feels a little forced. I mean, we can allude to a long-standing issue, and having the poison bits and normal bits will certainly explain how the leaders could evolve their Pokemon. But I would stop it where you did.

Zenith said he working on something, so I want to see what it is before progressing much farther. But I think we are pretty set on switching the fighting gym to normal, which will still fit in Kalypso, where I had suggested be the site of the fighting gym. To re-iterate what they were:

Normal -Kalypso
Poison -Laysan
Sedcini -Dragon
Light -Portwind
Rock -Enechestra
Dark -Aquapolis

As of right now, are there any that people want to change?

[ImmunityBow]

Poison at Laysan? Laysan's the clean-air small town of Topaz, kind of like Verdanturf. It seems a little out of place. I'd almost rather switch Laysan with Portwind.

[Reliability]

But Laysan is all berries and stuff. Berries can be used to make poison. And, I really wanted to have the Light gym in a city with a lighthouse, so if you're set on Poison in Portwind, I'd prefer to have Light in Gallea.

I thought Cetacea would be more Vendanturf-y than Laysan.

[ImmunityBow]

Laysan Town is a mountain town similar to Verdanturf, whereas Cetacea is right by the sea. It does make a difference, even geographically since larger towns do tend to be near waterways.

The lighthouse does provide the justification I was looking for, though.

[Zenith]

Laysan would work better with the Nomal gym; we could turn it into a farming village. More on that later this week, when I don't have a ton of homework. >_>

I have plans for Portwind. More on that...also later this week.

We still need somewhere for the Dragon gym. Once again, later this week.

And I like the whole backstory behind the Rivalry Orb...at the very least, as a myth. Nyte made a good point about how the other item-evos incorporate themselves into the 'mons. We just need to make sure to emphasize that the Rivalry Orb doesn't.

[ImmunityBow]

Laysan Town is a farming village.

Sedcini sounds fine for the Dragon gym, have you been reading or skimming?

[Zenith]

Long story short, I was thinking of expanding Soma Island into a village and having the Dragon gym there. If we gave the player a plot-related reason to go there it'd also give the player a reason to explore the southwest part of the map, as there isn't one right now. It would replace Portwind--you said yourself that it's just filler right now--and I have an idea of what would go there in its place. Unfortunately, I still don't have enough time to elaborate on it...I'll be able to on Thursday.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

All in the 4th generation. Up until that point, it simply was not the case. It depends whether we want to bring that in from the 4th generation as well, or keep it like it was before. I was never a fan of having starters in the teams, but that's just my personal preference.

In FR/LG many trainers (not gym leaders but...) had starters.

[Reliability]

I meant leaders, since that's what we're discussing here. I don't like having them in trainer teams either, but that's not as big of a dislike.

[Reliability]

Long story short, I was thinking of expanding Soma Island into a village and having the Dragon gym there. If we gave the player a plot-related reason to go there it'd also give the player a reason to explore the southwest part of the map, as there isn't one right now. It would replace Portwind--you said yourself that it's just filler right now--and I have an idea of what would go there in its place. Unfortunately, I still don't have enough time to elaborate on it...I'll be able to on Thursday.
I waited.

Pacificlog in RSE and the Seafoam islands in FR/LG were of the same cloth: the first time I played through each, I didn't even go there. :/ Sedcini is more appropriate for a Dragon gym, and it doesn't require a lot of travelling. Do I need to stress again that this is already a VERY long game?

For Poison, I can rationalize Gallea. It's all shipbuilding and industry, which causes a lot of pollution. The gym leader is trying to control this, as he/she knows the destructive power of poison.

(In case you didn't know, here are the rationales for the others:
Kalypso -Normal: Normal Pokemon can be associated with happiness, which seems to be the general connotation of the city... Fighting had a better reason -.-
Gallea -Poison: as pitched above
Portwind -Light: A twin lighthouse to the one in Olivine, also acts as a possibility of introducing Jasmine as a character.
Sedcini -Dragon: Caves=dragons.
Aquapolis -Dark: Bottom of the sea is dark.)

[Reliability]

NOW THAT YOU HAVE READ THIS, A BABY IS COMING TO HUNT YOU DOWN AND STAB YOU TO DEATH IN YOUR SLEEP BECAUSE OF ALL THE DEAD PUPPIES! U MUST NOW RESPOND WITH A SIMPLE "HELLZ YES" OR "HELLZ NO" TO THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT:

Are these locations okay, or do we need to visit further alternatives?

AND THEN FORWARD THIS MESSAGE TO ANYONE THAT HAS NOT POSTED IN THIS TOPIC AFTER FOUR DAYS OR THE BABY WILL GET YOU WITH IT'S SLEEP-DEPRIVED, BLOOD SHOT EYES!!! SO MANY TANTRUMS!!!

[note that any additional comments would be appreciated by this killer baby, but are not required to appease him. ^.^ Thanks!]

[Cyndadile]

Not exactly sure about Kalypso, but the others are fine as long as there are Grimer or Muk (if we have them, otherwise something similar) near Gallea or when surfing in the town.

BAD EVIL BABY!!! TIME FOR A TIME-OUT!!!

[NyteFyre]

The locations, i'm perfectly fine with.

[ImmunityBow]

Fine by me.

[Irot_Rebod]

NOW THAT YOU HAVE READ THIS, A BABY IS COMING TO HUNT YOU DOWN AND STAB YOU TO DEATH IN YOUR SLEEP BECAUSE OF ALL THE DEAD PUPPIES! U MUST NOW RESPOND WITH A SIMPLE "HELLZ YES" OR "HELLZ NO" TO THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT:

Are these locations okay, or do we need to visit further alternatives?

erm... HELLZ YES!

[Silver]

NOW THAT YOU HAVE READ THIS, A BABY IS COMING TO HUNT YOU DOWN AND STAB YOU TO DEATH IN YOUR SLEEP BECAUSE OF ALL THE DEAD PUPPIES!

okay thats it!
reliability, i'm booking you a place in the nuthouse
nah i'm just kiddin'
HELLZ YES!

[Reliability]

Gallea: The gym leader sees the pollution and issues of the big city of Colussus. Not wanting Gallea to become what Colussus has, the leader refuses to let industry advance beyond a certain point, only allowing very basic, non-emission creating machinery to exist in the city, as the leader
----
Names that need to be reduced down:
Dragon: Drake, George, Matthew, Wolfe
Poison: Bella(donna), Ivy, Nightshade, Bane, Daphne
Rock: Rocco, Jasper, Crys
Ghost: Tod(d), Aura, Tom, Guy, Echo, Arachna, Elvira, Endora, Tabitha, Morticia, Hilda, Morticia, Poe, Vlad, Regan, Lucifer, Igor, Herman, Damian

Names still need to be generated for:
Normal: Ayita, Tiva

I started with two names that mean "dance." But we can go with any vein we want with the gym leader. That's just what came to mind for me.

For the ones that already have suggestions, please choose you favourite two, and we can vote on those when people have selected. If you have a suggestion that you like better than anything in the mix, include it as well, and if its super spectacular, I'll throw it in when we vote.

Personally,
Dragon:George, Wolfe
Poison: Bella, Daphne
Rock: Jasper, Crys
Ghost: Aura, Poe

[NyteFyre]

I was Thinking that Ivy and Drake are already in use, canon wise, and it would be awkward to use more than once.

Dragon: Matthew, or Wolfe
Poison: Shade (cut night out cause that would name her after a pokemon move), or Belladonna, i can't stand the name Bella alone. (ugh...twilight...-shudder)
Rock: Just Crys
Ghost: (Poe sounds awkward alone, and makes me think of Ocarina of Time)I like Aura, and Vlad better.

[Cyndadile]

Dragon: Drake, Wolfe
Poison: Bella, Ivy
Rock: Jasper, Crys (We need a female rock gym leader, rock is usually reserved for male trainers/leaders)
Ghost: Damian, Edgar (We need a male ghost gym leader, same as above)

Normal: John, Jane (doesn't getmore "normal" than that)

[NyteFyre]

What about the chick in Rustoboro, Roxxane or whatever it was?

And we had Morty in G/S/C.

Funny thing, I used to go by the names you picked for Dragon. lol

For Normal, I was thinking Horeshio, or......Travis for some reason.

[Irot_Rebod]

Dragon: Wolfe
Poison: Bella
Rock: Jasper
Ghost: Poe

Normal: Norma (I know, there already is a 'Norman', but... :P), I also like Jane.

[Zenith]

I was under the impression that we were still gonna have a Ghost E4 member...

Seconding Bella and Jasper for the Poison & Rock leader names.

[Reliability]

We are.
He/she hasn't be named yet, so I figured we'd save time by grouping the discussion in with the gym leaders. But the fact that the ghost e4 is in face e4 was made clear by all previous posts, so there is really no need to be confused.

[ImmunityBow]

Jasper and Bella sound good.

I'm fond of George as a name for the Dragon-type Gym Leader but is it likely that people will get the reference? They might think that it's a joke or something (I would certainly assume so if I saw a powerful gym leader named Bob, say.)

[Zenith]

...Well, I'm not seeing the reference. >_>

Depends on what we go with. If we make Soma Island a town and put the Dragon gym there, we're gonna need something a little more mystic sounding.

[Cyndadile]

...Well, I'm not seeing the reference. >_>

Nor I.

[Reliability]

http://www.kellscraft.com/stgeorge.html
Essentially, he's the subject one of the original dragon slaying legends.

[ImmunityBow]

Yeah, George is a really clever name for a Dragon-type Gym Leader, and I like it because it's such a common name yet so perfect. It'd be a shame if we can't use it, though I would understand if we don't end up doing so.

[Irot_Rebod]

I like George, especially due to how clever the reference is. However, I prefer Wolfe because I'm not sure that most people would catch the reference and therein would lose a lot of its intention. Looking at it from an outsider's perspective, I'd think it was some lame joke. But, that's just me. ^^'

[Betatmw]

Dragon:George, Wolfe or Drake
Poison: Bella or Bane
Rock: Jasper
Ghost: Aura, Todd or Vlad
Normal: Norman, Norm, Jayne or John

[Reliability]

We can't use Drake, as that was the RSE dragon E4's name. Norman was a gym leader in RSE, which takes out Norm as a possibility as well.

I DO really like that Jayne spelling of "Jane" though. it certainly makes it a little less bland while still keeping the general idea. That is my current favorite for Normal.

I figure I'll throw up a poll (singular) for all of these in a day or two. Obviously we can switch them later on if we come up with somehting better, but if you have any more ideas or haven't voted yet, lets hear them now.

Current leaders:
Dragon: Wolfe and George
Poison: Bella is really the only big one, but Bane, Ivy and Daphne have also been mentioned.
Rock: Jasper and Crys
Ghost: Poe, Aura and Vlad

Current suggestions for Normal:
Ayita, Tiva, John, Jane, Jayne, Travis, Horashio

If people want to single out two of the normal favourites (or make more suggestions) in the next couple days as well, that would be awesome, and we can get these done.
As a side note:

In case this is a concern, for each type, here is the gender balancing of gym leaders and elite four members for the first four generations (I'd ask that you don't name the types to come in the fifth for people like me who want it to be a surprise)
Dragon: 2 male ; 1 female
Poison: 1 male; 1 female
Rock: 2 male ; 1 female
Ghost: 1 male ; 2 female
Normal: 1 male, 1 female

[Irot_Rebod]

I also like that spelling of Jayne - simple sound; not as bland look.

I think the count for the Ghost trainers might be off:
Gen I: Agatha
Gen II: Morty
Gen III: Phoebe
Gen IV: Fantina
So, Ghost: 1 male ; 3 female.

[Reliability]

I tried so hard not to miss any... quite right IR.

[Irot_Rebod]

Oh, no... I'm sure you counted right. You just "made a typo," right? *winkwinknudgenudge* :P

[XTS]

Dragon: Matthew or George
Poison: Daphne
Rock: Jasper
Ghost: Echo or Damian

who, me? favoritism? never! >_> <_<

For Normal....Gerry, Eric (both stemming from 'generic'), or.....I guess Janye or Jayna works fine. I can't come up with much for this one.

(also, I'd argue Agatha could be considered a Poison trainer rather than a Ghost trainer, but whatever. and I wouldn't call George a 'subtle' reference - it's obvious enough to me.)

[Zenith]

Eric sounds better for the normal one...or Jenna, if we need another female.

[Reliability]

As far as naming is concerned, we can use the other topic for naming discussions in future.
For discussion purposes, we can use their current names:
Dragon: Wolfe
Poison: Bella
Rock: Crys
Normal: Jayne (Jane)
or refer to them as "the ___ gym leader," if you detest the name.

Now, we ought to focus on:
1. lineups, move sets ect.,
2. the themes of each gym, including gym puzzle ideas that go along with them. (and by extension the themes of towns who may be at this point vague or unrelated)
3. the order of the gyms (but this is partly based on 1 and what Pokemon are available for each type)

[Reliability]

...k, so I guess I'll start.

XTS posted this a while back, with the appropriate Pokemon for each leader/e4 (with my additions in bold, from the removal of Fighting and creation of Normal):



Ghost E4 - Phantasomo, Dusclops, Misticade, Misdreavus, Ferrian
Light E4 - Purior, Slowpriest, Ampharos, Espeon, Illumbra, Blitzfaust
Water E4 - Tidasale, Starmie, Lanturn, Ludicolo, Kraklaw
Steel E4 - Scizor, Skarmory, Quiisord, Metusk, Arowana

Layla - Noctiger, Malduval, Harskrow, Vilephist, Sereberine
Osiro - Destado, Sandslash, Cackinge, Flygon, Khaphix
Christina - Frostorm, Iglonia, Polarice, Kunaiga, Wolfrost
Gerad - Stribra, Jolteon, Nimbolt, Bakurge
Rock gym - Rhydon, Tsunall, Ingero, Leoracle
Light gym - Coroona, Seraph, Thoraxa, Purior
Dragon gym - Tropius, Malistril, Lapras, Drakodo
Poison gym - Kondria, Qwilfish, Pythang, Weezing
Normal gym - Firrel, Gyphonic, Zantilidae, Miltank, Tauros


I think that based on the order that we choose, we can cut/downgrade some of them. Here is my suggestion:

1. Jane: Grific, Tauros, Zantilidae
2. Bella: Qwilfish, Kondria, Pythang
3. Tristan: Coroona, Seraph, Thoraxa, Purior
4. Wolfe: Tropius, Malistril, Lapras, Drakodo
5. Crys: Rhydon, Tsunall, Ingero, Leoracle
6. Gerad - Stribra, Jolteon, Nimbolt, Bakurge
7. Christina - Frostorm, Iglonia, Polarice, Kunaiga, Wolfrost
8. Osiro - Destado, Sandslash, Cackinge, Flygon, Khaphix
9. Layla - Noctiger, Malduval, Harskrow, Vilephist, Sereberine

Then, the E4 exactly as above, but with Blitzfaust replacing Espeon:
Ghost E4 - Phantasomo, Dusclops, Misticade, Misdreavus, Ferrian
Light E4 - Purior, Slowpriest, Ampharos, Illumbra, Blitzfaust
Water E4 - Tidasale, Starmie, Lanturn, Ludicolo, Kraklaw
Steel E4 - Scizor, Skarmory, Quiisord, Metusk, Arowana

I know this list isn't perfect because I haven't really considered too much, this is just what I think would work based on what we have and avoiding overlaps. PLEASE point out anything you would like to change, whether it be order or Pokemon or evolutions. Really, anything. OR make your own if you find this one to be to riddled with flaws to be saved.

[NyteFyre]

Only problem that i have is that there is 4 gyms in a row that have 4 pokemon, before you have 5 to fight.. I think it should be mixed up some, like 3 here, 5 there, 6 here or there, maybe one with only , and 4 here or there. I always found the nearly constant rise in the number of gym leader pokemon. I think it would be cool to mix it up a little, though maybe keep it low leveled in the beginning, then mix it how you want toward the end. But that's just me.

[PokePoindexter]

I see I'm coming into this discussion rather late, so I apologize. Here are some of my takes on what Reli has posted:

1. Jane: Grific, Tauros, Zantilidae
Depending on when this gym comes into play, Zantilidae might be a bit overkill. Tauros I can see being used, and Zangoose as well, but definitely not both.

2. Bella: Qwilfish, Kondria, Pythang
Again, Pythang would be slightly extreme this early in the game. Thoraxa might be a decent alternative here.

3. Tristan: Coroona, Seraph, Thoraxa, Purior
If we're going to have a Light E4 member, Tristan's team should probably get an overhaul (like a new type).

4. Wolfe: Tropius, Gryphonic, Drakodo, Malistril
Lapras doesn't make any sense to me if he's supposed to be a user of Dragon-like Pokemon. If you ask me, Gryphonic or Tellure are the closest you'll get without adding Kipporok or Typhidna into the mix. Only other change I would make would be making Malistril the star of his team rather than Drakodo.

5. Crys: Rhydon, Tsunall, Ingero, Leoracle
Seems fine to me.

6. Gerad - Nimbolt, Stribra, Jolteon, Bakurge
Also pretty good, but I think Nimbolt should start the team.

7. Christina - Frostorm, Lapras, Iglonia, Polarice, Kunaiga
I was one of the main campaigners against Christina having both Wolfrost and Kunaiga at one time (at least at the beginning). In my opinion, they just don't belong together. Lapras at least prevents Fire-types from ramming through the team.

8. Osiro - Destado, Sandslash, Cackinge, Flygon, Khaphix
As I recall, this was the set we all agreed on. Fine with me.

9. Layla - Noctiger, Malduval, Harskrow, Vilephist, Sereberine
I might have thrown Dionare somewhere in the mix, but otherwise I see no problems with this set either.

EDIT: As for the E4:

Ghost E4 - Phantasomo, Dusclops, Misticade, Misdreavus, Ferrian
If Phantern isn't in the Grass gym, he should definitely be on this list somewhere. Otherwise I'm okay with it.

Light E4 - Purior, Dolphure, Ampharos, Blitzfaust, Illumbra
I think Illumbra should be the star, personally.

Water E4 - Starmie, Reefrain, Lanturn, Ludicolo, Kraklaw
I think Reefrain is better, as he prevents Electrics from running all over him (although Lanturn can be of some help in that regard)

Steel E4 - Scizor, Skarmory, Quiisord, Metusk, Arowana
I'm fine with this set.

[ImmunityBow]

As the 6th gym leader with a very underwhelming Kondria on her team, I feel that Bella needs Pythang over the rather lacklustre Seviper, especially with only 3 members in her team.

Tristan shouldn't get a type change IMO. The cool part about seeing him twice is seeing his evolution, and a type change kind of makes you think "Why didn't they just get another character instead?" Also, the player has never seen a Light-type Gym leader or E4 before, and so this gives the type a chance to shine in both. I'm actually not sold on him getting Blitzfaust in the E4, since that's Bradley's signature Pokemon. Tellure seems sufficiently light-lke. Phantasomo seems like a good choice, especially since you then can drop Phantasomo from the Ghost E4 in favour of Phantern.

[Reliability]

Okay, how about this? If I changed something, it's detailed in the Italics. I also did not comment if the lineup is the same as my original.

1. Jane: Grific, Zantilidae
It really want to keep Zantilidae on this team, simply because it adds to the rivalry between the poison and normal gyms. I feel like if we use Zangoose here, we would have to use Seviper in the next one instead of Pythang. And highlighting the new Pokemon is kinda nice. If we just have the two (much like Whitney in GSC) can that work level-wise?
2. Bella: Qwilfish, Kondria, Pythang
If still needed, we can take out Kondria (or Qwilfish) and use it as a gym trainer Pokemon to take down the difficulty.
3. Tristan: Coroona, Seraph, Thoraxa, Purior
This is fine.
4. Wolfe: Tropius, Gryphonic, Drakodo, Malistril
Or, do we want to use Cragoyle? He isn't in the Rock team, and he's more dragon-looking than Gryphonic.
5. Crys: Rhydon, Tsunall, Ingero, Leoracle
6. Gerad - Nimbolt, Stribra, Jolteon, Bakurge
7. Christina - Frostorm, Lapras, Iglonia, Polarice, Kunaiga
I'm fine with this. But I'd like it if we can find somewhere else to use Wolfrost.
8. Osiro - Destado, Sandslash, Cackinge, Flygon, Khaphix
9. Layla - Noctiger, Malduval, Harskrow, Vilephist, Sereberine

Ghost E4 - Phantern, Dusclops, Misticade, Misdreavus, Ferrian
Phantern (missed him originally >.<) replacing Phatasomo.
Light E4 - Purior, Dolphure, Ampharos, Phantasomo, Illumbra
Phantasomo added over Blitzfaust.
Water E4 - Starmie, Reefrain, Lanturn, Ludicolo, Kraklaw
This works for me.
Steel E4 - Scizor, Skarmory, Quiisord, Metusk, Arowana

I'm sure they are somewhere, but we have the line-ups for the rivals worked out, right? Including Vincent's Champion lineup?

[PokePoindexter]

My response comments:

Jane: Then I'm thinking we should replace Tauros (otherwise we have two physical normal-types with identical Speed; doesn't seem very appealing), perhaps with Firrel (or Persian, who is still ridiculously fast, but much more Special-based).

Bella: Well, if it's later on than I thought it would be, maybe replacing Kondria or Qwilfish with somebody else (Venomoth, maybe?).

Tristan: Fine with me.

Wolfe: Good point, I forgot about Cragoyle. Either one would work, I think.

As for Wolfrost, I was thinking he could be used on Chuck's team (if that's still in there), or, he could be added if we choose to do Post-E4 lineups (like those in Emerald).

Phantern's actually on Fernando's team, so I wouldn't object if you chose to scrap what I said earlier.

I bet it's easy to tell I encourage diversity among teams.

[ImmunityBow]

Persian would be very hard to deal with considering that its Cunning Swift is awfully powerful for that point in the game. It'd be cool but could cause tons of problems.

[NyteFyre]

I like diversity, but i also would like for some competitiveness. The canon gym leaders are all so easy, all they do is attack, and defend, no set-ups, almost no flair, and too much redundency in their teams. I hope the actual stats and such for these, or at least some of the later gym leaders, adds to more of a challenge.

[PokePoindexter]

Is there no competitiveness in trying to beat Whitney's Miltank? In handling abuse from Flannery's Torkoal? Fantina's whole team in DP? You're not going to tell me those are ridiculously easy, are you (at least the first time you fight them if you do rematches later)?

Anyway, I've been encouraging spread-out stats; that's why I campaigned against both Tauros and Zantilidae on one gym team, and in support of not using both Wolfrost and Kunaiga on Christina's lineup.

[NyteFyre]

Whitney's Miltank was only hard becuase it used Milk Drink too damn much. Torkoal was way too easy, beat it my first time thru, same with Fantina. Though that's partly becuase i never played Platinum (Pearl FTW), and therefore, no rematch.

I noticed that, but i meant AI wise, as well as hold item/move/ability/stat wise. Give them natures that actually help. How about some scarf sets, or Salac berries? Have the computer THINK ahead, or use set ups for a Baton Pass or something. Instead of just all STAB moves, give them some off market, or even chain-bred/egg moves, provide a challenge worthy of the title GYM LEADER.

But now i'm seriously digressing into a subject that is best reserved for when we finalize the line-ups, and detail each one more thoroughly.

[ImmunityBow]

There's a fine line between a diverse challenge and requiring massive amounts of grinding, though. We have to keep that in mind.

[NyteFyre]

Who said anything about grindng though? We can tone down the levels, and up the difficulty (and, obviously make it increasingly difficult, starting with simply attack, defend, heal strategy, and working up toward sub net battle standard. I mean how would you feel about fighting a net battle difficulty Froy?) and everything would be honkey-dory, right?

Also, grinding is all I ever really had to do to beat the canon gyms. Grind until a specific type pokemon on my team is a high enough level, and sweep through the gym with just that pokemon. It's boring, and tedious, and not fun. The only gym I've ever had trouble on, and was a real challenge, was Blue in GSC/Giovanni in RBY. And even then, they used the same attack/defend/heal strategy that all AI trainers use outside of the Battle Tower/Frontier.

Also, the most any gym leader used in terms of items was an Aspear Berry, or a Super/Hyper potion/Full Restore.

I don't mean for this to be on par with Net Battle, and other Simulators, but I would at least like to actually have to think a bit about what I'm doing.

This is obviously a losing argument for me, so I'm just going to stop here...

[Reliability]

Grinding will still work to get through most of the gyms if people aren't competitive enough to make strategy and such. It dosen't matter how epic their strategy is if all of your Pokemon are 10+ levels higher than their's.

The only reason that I'm a little wary is that I'm not sure about programming. The 'attack/defend/heal' is probably much easier to program, and it dosen't hinge on what the player does, as most competitive strategies would need to do in order to be effective. If it can be done, then I think it's worth discussing. But if it can't be done, or done well, then it wouldn't really work.

[NyteFyre]

Ok, I can se where that is coming from, and it's a viable reason. I would be willing to discuss it as well, if it's viable.

[PokePoindexter]

Also, you can't expect everyone who downloads this game and attempts to play it to be familiar with PO or Shoddy.

[NyteFyre]

I myself don't know much of how competitive gaming works, i just thought it would add a nice little bit of flair that would make our game stand out more than it already is.