Little Corrections Topic

Post here to suggest any little corrections, say, a Pokemon has a height of 4'34" (probably my fault) or should have a move or something.

Change/correction log:
1. Embear/Grizlare now have Guts, not Blaze.
2. Subversion removed from Purior
3. Shatter removed from Polara/Polarice, and Crush Claw was removed from Egg Moves to take its place.
4. Earthquake added to Kunaiga's TM list.
5. Enlightenment replaced with Barrier on Blitzfaust.
6. Equill and Tellure's abilities changed from Color Change to Synchronize/Empty Head and Synchronize/Copycat respectively.
7. Mud Slap added to Venap's levelset, Icicle Whip added to Venap's TM list.
8. Vital Spirit added as an alternate ability for Cragoyle.
9. Refresh on Goldrake replaced Swift (moving it from level 20 to 35), and Payday took the now-empty level 20 spot.
10. Old moves have been decided to use D/P mechanics, apart from Flash (50 BP Light Priority) and possibly Outrage (90 BP vs 120 BP).
11. Wing Attack replaced by Sonic Boom on Grific/Gryphonic.
12. Smellingsalt added as a move relearner move on Embear/Grizlare.
13. Replaced Swift with Hyper Voice on Mogel/Firrel.
14. Added "Roar" to Smallard's egg moves
15. Lapras/Sirene's TM lists corrected to stay truer to canon.
16. Shatter replaced with Rolling Kick on Huskii/Tundrolf/Wolfrost.
17. Increased Mallarge's size to 6'5"
18. Replaced Calm Wind with Equilibrium on Cumuloft.
19. Changed Caribrisk from "Tundra Pokemon" to "Caribou Pokemon"
20. Whispaw's evolution method changed from Fire Stone to Level 29. Level-up moves moved down to compensate.

Issues still needed to be discussed:
None currently.

Rejected:
1. Giving Seraph Cloud Nine as an alternate ability, and/or replacing Safeguard on its levelset with Sunny Day.
2. Changing Sing's name to something less generic.

To kick this off, here are a couple of small ones:
1. Make it so Whispaw becomes Coroona through levelup instead of Fire Stone. For one, we already have three 'Mons that evolve through Fire Stone--Vulpix, Growlithe, and Eevee--another one is a little redundant. More importantly, Whispaw, if I remember right, is first encountered in Coalchar Forest, very early on. If Fire Stones are available in Topaz at the same time they are in the canon games, the player won't be able to get them until very late. Starting around the 30s, Whispaw starts learning fewer moves, and Coroona starts learning exclusive ones. The player might not get the necessary Fire Stone until their Whispaw is in the 40s or higher, missing out on the moves it would've learned as a Coroona to that point, and being forced to go to the Move Relearner to get them...if Topaz even has one. Making Whispaw evolve around Level 25-30 would remedy this.
2. With the new musical moves Topaz has added, Sing's name is pretty generic. Why not change it to something like Lullaby?

I support 1 for sure. Having 4 fire stone lines is pretty redundant, and makes Coroona unobtainable in the demo unless a fire stone in added somewhere.

I'm not sure we should be messing with canon move names though.

I also would have to agree with Zeniths 1st suggestion. While I may never use Coroona, It would still make sense to have one less Fire Evolution in a game that already has 3. Ironically, they are the original 3 Fire Stone Evolutions. Sing does sound Generic, but it's a canon move. It would pracitcally be murder to change that.

1. Sure. 4 people for, maybe if one more person agrees then we'll change it.
2. Probably not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ImmunityBow

1. Sure. 4 people for, maybe if one more person agrees then we'll change it.
2. Probably not.

---

I don't need to type my own post because verythign has already been said.

Yes to 1, no to 2.

I'm not for this.

"Old moves have been decided to use D/P mechanics, apart from Flash (50 BP Light Priority) and possibly Outrage"

I liked how we were gonna differentiate things like BugBite and stuff.

I'm not sure if I have much say, but I for one dislike the idea.

Might sound weird, but a revamped Foldicrane.
Our Dex would become 201, but that might actually be cool. Jirachi's looked at in the same area as Mew, right? Mew's 151...so you get what I mean. *idea generated off of BTG's comment.

I had another, though I cant remember it for the life of me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zenith

1. Make it so Whispaw becomes Coroona through levelup instead of Fire Stone. For one, we already have three 'Mons that evolve through Fire Stone--Vulpix, Growlithe, and Eevee--another one is a little redundant. More importantly, Whispaw, if I remember right, is first encountered in Coalchar Forest, very early on. If Fire Stones are available in Topaz at the same time they are in the canon games, the player won't be able to get them until very late. Starting around the 30s, Whispaw starts learning fewer moves, and Coroona starts learning exclusive ones. The player might not get the necessary Fire Stone until their Whispaw is in the 40s or higher, missing out on the moves it would've learned as a Coroona to that point, and being forced to go to the Move Relearner to get them...if Topaz even has one. Making Whispaw evolve around Level 25-30 would remedy this.

---

I'm for this. Another solution, however, would be to have a fire stone findable in Chartree.

the level up has been updated. Also, if we had a firestone, that could lead to overpowering some.

I just took a look at the data in Topaz Pokedex. Who did the moves? They're all sorts of messed up. We'll have to go over them again and fix the formatting at some point.

I'm pretty sure Ali did them, though I can't be sure. I moved them all down to work with the new evolution, but didn't notice anything strange.

We are going to differentiate Bug Bite and Avalanche. Just things like Leaf Blade and Fly will change.

As for Foldicrane, not until the game is completed at the very least. There are other cool concepts that were cut.

you mean, we ARE keeping our "topaz" edition of Avalanch and bug bite? YEAHHHHHHHH!!!!!

What is the difference in fly and leaf blade now?

True. I saw some of the old sprites, and although I was laughing my ass off at some (though I still couldn't do even that ;) ), there were some good ideas.

I still can't remember mine. I've thought forever, yet I can't.

Alright, let's take a look at the level-up moves for the Echoise line:

Quote:

---

Echoise
Tackle ---
Tail Whip ---
Water Gun 7
Supersonic 11
Water Sport 15
Water Pulse 18
Soothe Song 22
Bubblebeam 26
Cascade 29
Whirlpool 33
Serenade 37
Water Wall 42
Dive 46
Hydro Pump 50

---

Quote:

---

Mermeidon
Tackle ---
Tail Whip ---
Water Gun ---
Supersonic ---
Water Sport ---
Water Pulse 16
Soothe Song 23
Bubblebeam 27
Cascade 30
Whirlpool 35
Serenade 39
Water Wall 44
Dive 49
Hydro Pump 52

---

Quote:

---

Dolphure
Tackle ---
Tail Whip ---
Water Gun ---
Supersonic ---
Water Sport ---
Water Pulse ---
Soothe Song ---
Bubblebeam ---
Cascade ---
Light Wave 32
Purify 35
Whirlpool 39
Serenade 44
Water Wall 49
Dive 53
Hydro Pump 58

---

Notice that Echoise learns Water Pulse at level 18 while Mermeidon learns it at level 16. A Pokemon learning moves before its pre-evo is extremely rare, I think there are only one or two actual Pokemon that do this, and certainly not the starters.

On Dolphure, putting "---" for moves below level 32 is an amateur mistake. Even moves that technically can't be directly learned by the Pokemon must also have assigned levels. What the moveset here says is that all of those --- moves are starting moves, which is not what we want.

I went and looked through other Pokemon entries and found similar mistakes.

On Dolphure, from Soothe Song to Cascade, I think they should be put at the same level as Mermeidon. Water pulse seems fine as a Starting move on Dolphure, but only up to there.

The amateur being me, of course. I didn't get until a while ago that you had to assign levels even if the learning level was before the evolving level, so I must have eliminated all of them in the cleanup process. Sorry! I'll start fixing them.

As for Water Pulse, it seems like that was a typo. If you look at the level differences, there's a full 7 levels between Water Pulse and Soothe Song there, then 4 levels then 3.

Maybe:
Water Pulse 18
Soothe Song 21
Bubblebeam 25

Would work better?

what about Cascade?

Everything Cascade and up seems fine. Maybe Hydro Pump up to 55 or 56 on Mermeidon.

So you're saying to leave Cascade as a starting move on Dolphure?

Wait, wait , wait...why does Mermeidon learn Water Pulse, Bubblebeam, and Cascade, anyway? All three of them have 60-65 Base Power. It's...redundant, for lack of a better term.

Actually, we could probably move Light Wave down into the mid 20s. Kind of a lead in to becoming part Light.

It does seem strange, doesn't it? Maybe this does deserve some more looking into.

I'd say so. My guess is whoever first made the list was only thinking of putting stab moves in there, and possibly basing it off of something, while not paying attention to the powers, and such.

Well, to be fair the moveset was made when the only thing we knew about the line were the names, sprites and types. It was probably even one of the ones that was made before its base stats, height and weight were confirmed.

So does that mean we're going to reexamine all the movesets? Right now would be a good time to do so, because then we can incorporate some of the ideas in the Suggestions topic.

It would be tough work and stuff. (hell for the next couple months), but I think it might be a good idea myself. Thats me though.

I'm all for it@ Some of the other movesets could use some examining, and others could use a theme, like Ninetails is based off of the idea of grudge.

Procrastination's a pain in the ass. Anyway, my take on a possible overhaul on the Echoise line. Any small numbers refer to footnotes at the end of the post, to explain stuff better.

Current Dex Entry

First of all, the base stats. They're pretty good, but the terrible Attack sticks out like a sore thumb. Sure, it's Special-based, but you almost never see 'Mons with five very good stats and one horrible one that isn't Speed, with the exception of the more gimmicky ones. The starters especially aren't like this. An attempt to balance the line a little:

Echoise
HP: 53
Atk: 40
Def: 50
SpA: 57
SpD: 54
Spe: 60
BST: 314(1)

Mermeidon
HP: 68
Atk: 51
Def: 65
SpA: 76
SpD: 70
Spe: 73
BST: 405

Dolphure
HP: 89
Atk: 65
Def: 83
SpA: 103
SpD: 93
Spe: 97
BST: 530(1)

There. The line still has the same feel, but now it isn't as minmaxed. And as an added bonus, Tackle won't be borderline useless when a low level Echoise is up against something that resists Water.

On to levelup movesets. Dolphure's stats make it both a great Special sweeper as well as a good tank, but it's only decent as a wall, as its defenses are only above average. We need to get rid of the redundant moves, reduce the amount of support moves (since walling isn't Dolphure's main thing, it should be more of a secondary concern), and spread the different move types around more (too many attacking moves at low levels, too many status & support moves at mid-high levels).

("--" means it starts with it, and can be re-taught by the Move Relearner. "xx" means it can't be learned by this form.)

Moves: (Echoise/Mermeidon/Dolphure)
Tackle --/--/--
Tail Whip --/--/--
Water Gun 7/--/--
Supersonic 11/--/--
Water Sport 14/14/14
Water Pulse 18/18/18
Soothe Song 21/22/22
Cascade 24/xx/xx
Light Wave xx/26/26 (2)
Windwhistle 28/32/32 (3)
Take Down 32/35/xx
Signal Beam xx/xx/36 (4)
Serenade 36/40/42
Purify 39/43/46 (5)
Hydro Pump 43/48/52
Water Wall 48/53/xx
Wrath xx/xx/58 (6)
Tail Glow xx/xx/65

Actually, that turned out better than I was expecting. I even snuck in most of the more defensive moves as lower form exclusives. Originally it was to give them something in place of Light Wave, Signal Beam, etc., but then I ran with it when I realized that it would help people that wanted to breed their original, and make the kid more wall-based. A wall build wouldn't be as good during the game as a sweeper with better type coverage, and keeping your starter in its first form would be counterintuitive so early on. But someone that already beat the main game, or at least is really far, and wanted a Wallphure wouldn't have to worry about keeping it in a weaker form for so long.

I feel like Tail Glow really helps Dolphure out. The move actually makes a lot of sense on the dolphin, and Dolphure can really be a threat against opposing teams when it can effectively boost its base SpA to 206 in one turn.

You may or may not have noticed that Dive isn't in there any more. Yes, it did fit, but there was a problem with it: it's an HM move in Topaz. Gamefreak has always avoided having HM moves learned naturally in the games the moves are actually HMs. The exceptions are Waterfall, which gets the grandfather clause as it's a Goldeen line exclusive and has been since 1st Gen, when it wasn't an HM, and Whirlpool, which wasn't an HM in D/P/Pl when the 4th Gen movesets were created.

So...opinions? Possible edits?

1. I looked at the canon starters' stats on Smogon, and I noticed that in relation to the others, the Grass starters had slightly higher BSTs in their first forms and slightly lower ones in their final forms, the Fire starters were the opposite, and the Water starters were in between them in both forms. Interestingly, every one of them had a BST of 405 in their second forms. Echoise and Dolphure had the stats of a Grass starter, so I edited them a little to be more in line with the Water ones.
2. Light Wave's power is middle of the line, and I felt like Level 32 was a little late to learn it. By moving it down to 26, Mermeidon gets more type coverage at an earlier time, and gives players a taste of what's coming up for it.
3. It seems like all of the starters, at some point, have a move that is learned right away at one evolution. With Light Wave moved down, I needed something there. A move that is basically an upgraded Supersonic seemed to work, even though the line can't really do anything with that lowered Defense. Then I decided to make it available to the lower forms as well.
4. Works with Dolphure, as it can already channel light through its tail; Signal Beam isn't much of a stretch. It helps its type coverage, gives Ludicolo (a possible Dolphure counter) something to worry about, and, more importantly, gives Dolphure a way of supereffectively hitting Dionare, since as of right now, Grass resists Light, making Dionare neutral to it.
5. Moved it up because of how powerful it is. I mean, it's basically a party-wide Esuna.
6. To be honest, I'm unsure about this one. I mean, it helps Dolphure a lot, but it might be too much. If we take it out, move Tail Glow down to 58.

I think we were planning on having all the starter's BSTs be equal, but I like the moveset changes. Balance stuff and all.

No BST changes, really, please. I agreed to do moveset changes but only that. We have neither time nor resources nor a really good reason (minimaxed or not, it's not that bad) to revamp every single aspect of every single Pokemon we have. Zenith, I appreciate your advice but you're given an inch and grabbing a mile. That's absolutely final. I don't care if 10 people want to change the BST. I might accept it if something is incredibly glaring (which is really difficult to achieve with stats, may I add) but not something as arbitrary as "minimaxed". We also made a conscious decision to keep all the starters at 525 BST, regardless of previous tradition.

Moveset changes seem fine, no Wrath though. I don't quite see Dolphure using Wrath, and it has plenty of other options (you're not going to fit Surf, Signal Beam, Ice Beam, Wrath and the other plethora of support moves Dolphure has.)

I understand that you don't want to mess with the stats very much. But I think that in this case, leaving this line's stats as is might not be a good idea. Let me elaborate:
1. As of right now, Dolphure's stats, outside of Attack, are all 85 or higher. We're taking borderline pseudo-legend level here. I can't believe I'm saying this, but Dolphure is looking overpowered right now because its only bad stat is one it's never going to use barring very early on.
2. As you said on the Questions thread, as of right now the player fights both rivals before being able to catch any Pokemon, meaning that they have to use their starter. If I understood you right, Vincent is fought before leaving Neo Bay. Because Echoise's Attack is so low, and its HP and Defense are very close to Venap and Celsinge, people that chose Echoise have to level grind to beat Bradley and are screwed against Vincent because of how much lower Echoise's Attack is.

Good to hear that you like the moveset...you know, besides Wrath, but I wasn't 100% on that anyway.

Trust me, Dolphure isn't overpowered. It has very few weaknesses but you must realize that Blastoise also has very few weak points (if I remember correctly defenses, HP, Sp. Atk and Atk are all 80+ for Blastoise, with speed being the low point) and is borderline NU right now. Dolphure's 98 base speed is just not enough, its Sp. Atk is nothing too special without Thunderbolt (which it doesn't have), though its defenses are great. If you want to look at a minimaxed starter, why don't you look at Infernape? Broken speed tier, very high attack and sp. atk, uber movepool. Or even Sceptile? 80 Atk, 105 Sp. Atk, 120 Speed, none of its other stats are truly bad.

The trainer also has the advantage of a Potion against Vincent though.

...But even one potion isn't enough when Venap hits twice as hard as Echoise at Level 5, and has the same Defense.

But it is basically guarenteed that Venap will use leer about half the time.

Possibly. Though the rivals do so in every official game, it could be different for the fangame.

I just noticed this. Why is Barkub normal type and Vixun fire type? Shouldn't they be either both normal or both fire, since they're kind of like counterparts?

Well, they're actually not counterparts, as research would show. The grow at different exp rates and are generally only connected by Fire Stones and type. Base stat wise, I believe Arcanine is far superior in total to Ninetales, though Ninetales may trump it in Special Defense and Speed.

I think that Barkub oughta be changed to fire though. Imo, pokes with one type shouldn't change their type through evolution.

I think Barkub clings more to "puppy" than to fire. Also, that would make Vixun and Barkub too similar, wouldn't it?

Okay, just one more thing about the Echoise line. I just want to get the levelup moveset finalized. We can talk about stats again if it becomes important at some point later on.

Just a couple minor and aesthetic changes.
Echoise
-- Tackle
-- Tail Whip
07 Water Gun
11 Supersonic
14 Water Gun
18 Water Pulse
21 Soothe Song
24 Cascade
28 Windwhistle
32 Take Down
36 Serenade
39 Purify
43 Hydro Pump
48 Water Wall

Mermeidon
-- Tackle
-- Tail Whip
-- Water Gun
-- Shine
07 Water Gun
11 Supersonic
14 Water Sport
18 Water Pulse
22 Soothe Song
26 Light Wave
32 Windwhistle
35 Take Down
40 Serenade
43 Purify
48 Hydro Pump
53 Water Wall

Dolphure
-- Tackle
-- Tail Whip
-- Water Gun
-- Shine
07 Water Gun
11 Supersonic
14 Water Sport
18 Water Pulse
22 Soothe Song
26 Light Wave
32 Windwhistle
36 Signal Beam
42 Serenade
46 Purify
52 Hydro Pump
58 Tail Glow


I'm kind of on the fence on Barkub's typing, but I'm leaning more toward Fire. The two lines were originally version counterparts, so it would make sense for the prevos to have similar typing.

I'm going to bring up the issue of Tail Glow.

It does make some sense flavor-wise, but it might break Dolphure. I'm worried about what Tail Glow + Riptide could do to a metagame, especially with Dolphure's speed and defenses.

And could you please bold all the changes made to the original?